Metaphysics Freewill

Discussion in 'Metaphysics' started by tablet, Dec 7, 2004.

  1. tablet

    tablet Premium Member

    I started this because it was mentioned on other thread so decided to start one and see what the members here at ID thought of it.

    I don't know if there's freewill or not because I rarely think about these issues. I'm undecided.

    However, I will say that freewill doesn't exist!
     
  2. dacruz

    dacruz New Member

    agreed, you always think about other opinions, from other people..develop a own opinion gets sometimes very time consuming:)
     
  3. pineappleupsidedown

    pineappleupsidedown Premium Member

    I think free will exists. Give two people the exact same experiances and such, and i believe they will still come out different people, because they have a choice in their future.

    No really way to test that though.
     
  4. Zsandmann

    Zsandmann Premium Member

    Well if you believe in alternate timelines / dimensions, then there is no freewill because all options happen, you are just in the timeline where certains options happened instead of others, somewhere there is a 'you' that did the other thing. Does that make sense?
     
  5. tablet

    tablet Premium Member

    Yes Z. What you said make sense, JC is on your side on this I think.

    I'm glad I pulled your leg. So, whoever voted "other" what makes them believe that it's freewill? When I see that coming. It's tempting... I put you in a corner where you have to prove yourself that there's freewill. And so you voted other.

    Come to think of it I think Freewill does exist but to a certain degree. Like the gender vote for instance. Suppose that the Gender Thread was predetermined and the rest that goes on in there is freewill. Choice. Being the one in power (the one who created that thread) I'm able to influence people freewill. Or known as "choice"

    How about Faith + Freewill?

    Give two people the exact same experiances and such
    IF both person are identical in all aspect, I think they will end up the same people. Environment and the things we come in contact is what makes us different. Otherwise we would all end up the same.
     
  6. pineappleupsidedown

    pineappleupsidedown Premium Member

    So say you put up a poll whose only options were "A" and "B". It is predestined which option you pick?

    ---pineapple
     
  7. Fitzpatrick

    Fitzpatrick Member

    IN my opinion from the knowledge i have aquired free will does now exist.

    Z gets some of it
     
  8. tablet

    tablet Premium Member

    What if I say I didn't pick them?
     
  9. pineappleupsidedown

    pineappleupsidedown Premium Member

    So until you had knowledge you didnt have free will?

    ---pineapple
     
  10. tablet

    tablet Premium Member

    Interesting. The ball is rolling. Keep them coming people cause I'm still undecided.

    So until you had knowledge you didnt have free will?
    What if it's predetermined that he will gain knowledge and make that statement?
     
  11. ZeroDeep

    ZeroDeep New Member

    Well, what is free will defined as? If it is the abscence of nessicated precedents in ones actions, then no, it cannot possibly exist; or, if it simply the act of an agent without an external element acting upon the agent.

    For example:

    I, for example, have been in a qaundry over the creation of the universe vernacular to christian tounge; did God create the world out of free will --a categorical imperative on non-tuism [driven neither by egoism, or altruism]--, or was he acting up an external agent; a nessecitated precedent ? Maybe this will make for good articulation.

    Determinism is what one should aim for: every event or state of affairs is determined by a preceding one. There have been many great philosophers that have debated this for centuries; it would be wise to service Google, you will find ample information.

    Compatibilism is what I aim for, insofar as my readings warrant. Compatibilism molds together "free will" and "determinism": Every state of affairs is determinied by a previous state of affairs, but one has the ability to chose wether or not to act upon the cause, and has the free will to make an alternative volition.

    For example:

    I saw this thread and had the choice to partake in the discussion. During this lapse, I could have made the choice wether or to act upon the nessicated cause, or not to act upon the nessicated cause.

    Locke, Hume, Kant, and Hobbes are all that one should be aware of.

    Deep




    :up:
     
  12. Zsandmann

    Zsandmann Premium Member

    Well if you arent allowed to make the choices it isnt free will.
    If I take a date out for dinner, Sorry honey, and order their meal for them, they might really enjoy what I chose.
    But they didnt pick it, it is what they wanted, but I took the choice away.
    Thats how I see free will: You have choices, some times you get what you want, sometimes you dont, but either way YOU are not the one picking them choice.

    EXAMPLE:

    I grew up in the South, I go to a restaurant that has two things on the menu: Chicken Fried Steak and Escargo (sp?) I will pick Chicken Fried Steak because I love it. I picked it but since I grew up in the south to love gravy covered fried goodness it isnt really my choice to pick that meal, it was predetermined.

    Now say I grew up in France. I went to the same restaurant but this time I get the escargo because I enjoy eating slimey invertabrates :). It wasnt a choice to pick the gravy covered fried goodness.

    Now I complicate things to play Devils advocate. Say I (the southern boy) pick Escargo to be different. Its still not free will because I picked it because I always get Country Fried Steak and I wanted to mix things up. See what I mean.

    Now I add alternate timelines:
    When Im handed the menu I pick Chicken Fried Steak in World A and Escargo in World B, in World C I went to another restaurant.
    See still no choice, OR all choices.

    In summation, there is no free will.
     
  13. ZeroDeep

    ZeroDeep New Member

    Also. What philosophy classes are you taking, and what exactly are you reading? I know that philosophy is one of the toughest courses and requires a good 6-7 examples of a certain proposition to get it fixated in the mind. It's not easy.

    :bnghd:

    Deep

    This was directed at Tablet.

    [Edited on 12-7-2004 by ZeroDeep]
     
  14. Fitzpatrick

    Fitzpatrick Member

    simply, do you decided where you are born who your parents/family are, do you decide what genes you have. Do you decide what you are taught in early age and what you espreience. how you react to these situations will have been based on how you grew in the "past".

    We are like one massive mathmatical forumal.

    Also if you belive in god then god has to be perfect so he would have had to experience everything so every single situation would have been created.

    I do a-level philosophy but i dont get my ideas from that.
     
  15. pineappleupsidedown

    pineappleupsidedown Premium Member

    OR is your choice based on your upbringing, not on something predestined. Not to get contraversal, but for a gay person, are they born predestined to be gay or is it that they go through life that leads them to MAKE that decision?

    ---pineapple
     
  16. Fitzpatrick

    Fitzpatrick Member

    I think homosexuality in people is fate i think that it is something that you get from both nature nuture, you have homosexualy relations in animals
     
  17. ZeroDeep

    ZeroDeep New Member

    That's biological determinism. This is much different than social determinism, and all other forms. It has more to do with the biological factors of onself, than the pyschological.

    Deep
     
  18. Fitzpatrick

    Fitzpatrick Member

    Zerodeep how do you know that it is biological determinisn
     
  19. ZeroDeep

    ZeroDeep New Member

    I'am just assuming that homosexuality is a predispository genetic trait, and not a pyscological cause. It's well documented that homosexuality is not a choice, it's been predetermined in oneself through biological factors -- in advocacy of popular research.

    Deep
     
  20. /Future Corpse/

    /Future Corpse/ Premium Member

    Freewill in an Absolute sense does not exist and I will show how.

    Whether or not one believes in nature or nurture, one must admit that the environment does influence us in some aspect or other during our early years of life. We are born and as organisms must learn how to react to external stimuli for the purpose of self-preservation. We learn how to behave according to the interactions with our caregivers, our parents or guardians. This behavior leads to the development of the basic concepts of individual morality and value systems. Here we have the interactions that imprint themselves upon us and dictate the proper way to communicate and relate to others.

    As time goes by these life lessons are condensed into merely ‘personality reflexes or traits’ where we are the ones acting them out, but it is only on a subconscious level. See the problem yet?

    If you are presented with the situation where you are angry with someone and have the immediate opportunity to hit him/her, you have a choice. You can chose to hit them or not, however this choice was already influenced subconsciously because of the type of personality that they have developed over their life. This tendency to do one thing or the other is not the destruction of freewill itself. Instead it is the problem that it is being generated by our subconscious and things, which we are unaware of, are blindly influencing us. We have the choice to do as we will, but when we are unaware that our choices are being influenced by unknown factors THAT is the breakdown of freewill, that is the illusion that we have freewill.

    How is this rectified? I am not so sure it can be. One way is to completely know everything about yourself, the hows and whys of the origin of your personality. Not an easy task I would imagine. The other is to unlearn what you have learned, but then the problem becomes starting from a blank mind, which is a overwhelming concept.