Sociology EU Considers Banning Swastika

Discussion in 'Sociology' started by Bleys, Jan 18, 2005.

  1. Bleys

    Bleys Phoenix Takes Flight Staff Member

    Disclaimer: This is not a mudpit type discussion - it is meant to discuss free speech versus a brutal symbol of repression and murder.

    Should #@!&% symbols be banned and people prosecuted for owning or displaying such symbols?

    Does taking away a symbol prevent hate crimes or hate thought?

    What are your feelings on the proposed EU ban.

  2. oddtodd

    oddtodd Premium Member

    Intersesting topic , I tried to take a sign away from a man in SanFrancisco that read " KILL ALL CHINESE" . I did this after my GF at the time chewed him a new one (she was from Taiwan) and marched off.... . He was this bitter old man who was sitting in a wheelchair that was covered with hate posters directed at Chinese .

    Picture me if you can , so pissed off that I am tearing these posters off a wheelchair on a major street corner with hundreds of people watching !

    A young couple aproached me and told me to knock it off because they felt the guy had right to his freedom of expression even though they thought he was wrong . I had to stop working off blind emotion for a minute and think about what I was doing before I came to my own conclusion that : Expressing yourself in a manner that insinuates or provokes violence , death , hatred , discrimination in any way was totaly wrong regardless of what the Constitution guarantees ( My oppinion only) and I was going to take the signs from this guy !

    So I did ! as I was tearing up these signs and putting them in a garbage can , a young police officer who was watching the whole thing approached me at the same time the guy was ramming me in the legs with his chair . I turned white thinking OMG I'm busted until the officer told the bitter old man that he would be arrested if he did not stop assaulting me with his chair .

    The officer said that technicaly he shold arrest me for destroying this mans property , but since I had not laid a hand on him as I was darting around him tearing the signs away , he was going to turn a blind eye . Then he told me to walk away !

    I may have been wrong in my actions , and the man may have been within his rights to express himself this way , but the officer seemed to of the mindset that "this is wrong, and I can't do anything about it" and was glad someone did .

    So I think YES ! ban hate symbols ! You can hate anything you want in your own mind , but there should be laws about the prpogation of violent acts and against symbols that embody hate and discrimination . Too bad the Constitution allows for racicts , bigots , zazis , Klan members to propogate their hate in public .

    I wont respond to any comments that defend this mans right to freedom of expression in this way so don't bother , it was an emotional moment that I would gladly repeat !

    What next ? Lawsuits by "Concerned Racists Against Prosecution"?

    C.R.A.P. ! Deny Bigotry !
  3. Bleys

    Bleys Phoenix Takes Flight Staff Member

    I can be such a liberal *sigh* but I can't imagine forbidding any speech. even if that speech is hate filled propaganda.

    Years ago my home state had a problem with neo-#@!&% movement. They were so open about their affiliation and would hand out pamplets to educate the youth. It was disgusting. Then these little wonders got a permit to hold a rally. Maybe 100 nazis turned out to preach their hate - but more than a 1000 turned out to protest and shout them down. It was wonderful.

    Since that time the #@!&% movement has gone somewhat underground. When you do hear about them it usually involves some kind of criminal charge - home invasion, meth labs, guns. I think it was actually better when they were out in the open and were open to ridicule and contempt. Having them in the background like they are now leaves one with a feeling of unease.

    I guess my biggest concern about limiting free speech is WHO gets to decide what it is. If I protest something I feel is unfair or express my disapproval of an elected official - could it be used against me?

    Anyone else?
  4. Mark

    Mark ♤♡◇♧ Staff Member

    I know that will never happen in America.

    To the Hopi Indian (long before #@!&% Germany) the meaning has always been different.

    The symbol and it's long-time meaning has been forever changed by one short evil period in history, and it's ikon, Hitler.

    But many years prior.......


    And then again I think, we should not erase the symbol's and adopted meaning's either, so that we may be reminded of the history and the mistakes that were made, and that history be reminded and not let come to pass the knowledge or lessons learned. We should not censor history, for the sake of being reminded.
  5. oddtodd

    oddtodd Premium Member

    Wasn't it twisted in the other direction before it became a #@!&% symbol also ?

    And Bleys , I do agree that the evil man had a right to express himself , but wonder if the word " kill " might actually be breaking a law ?? I was reading that a man was arrested for a bumpersticker that said " Kill Bush" . I think I read it at ATS , not sure .

    A family member of mine "expressed" his discomfort (with a visual display of a carefully selected finger being presented and pointing upward) at a motor brigade that shut down traffic at an intersection in Georgetown . It happened to be the president who was holding things up and 3 SS guys stopped him and questioned him for 45 minutes before sending him on his way .

    Seems if we can say , print , propogate so many bigoted oppinions then what about flippin authority the bird ?

    Anyones thoughts on the finger ?
  6. Mark

    Mark ♤♡◇♧ Staff Member

    Actually it has been used in many forms; tilted, reversed, etc, by many religions and race's.

    The first time the swastika was used with an "Aryan" meaning was on 25 December 1907, when the self-named Order of the New Templars, a secret society founded by [Adolf Joseph] Lanz von Liebenfels, hoisted at Werfenstein Castle (Austria) a yellow flag with a swastika and four fleurs-de-lys.

    The National Socialist German Workers Party (Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei or NSDAP) formally adopted the swastika or Hakenkreuz (hooked cross) in 1920.

    On 14 March 1933, shortly after Hitler's appointment as Chancellor of Germany, the NSDAP flag was hoisted along side Germany's national colors. It was adopted as the sole national flag on 15 September 1935 — the first political flag in the world to become a national flag.

    But that was less that was less than 100 years ago when it first appeared in Germany with a new connotation.

    But for the 2100 years prior,....from where it is thought to have originated,.... again a whole different positive meaning.

    The comet hypothesis is inspired the Han dynasty "silk comet atlas" found in the 1970s at Mawangdui, China. One drawing of a jetting comet viewed down its axis of rotation described by text on the artifact as a long-tailed "pheasant star" looks similar to the swastika. The artist who illustrated this silk some 2,200 years ago was not likely a first-hand observer.
  7. Bleys

    Bleys Phoenix Takes Flight Staff Member

    An excellent argument that I did not think of. Reminders of our failures or abuses does serve a greater good.

    And to oddtodd:
    You have probably had the single worse experience I have heard about. I have seen hateful speech but never carried to such a degree as to call for the genocide of entire people. And to be so matter of fact about it. It does make me wonder why he felt this way - what happened for him to hold the Chinese in such contempt.

  8. Bleys

    Bleys Phoenix Takes Flight Staff Member

    Oh heck I forgot about the bird...

    This comes straight from Cecil Adams and his straight dope.

    I hadn't thought about sexual connotations - I assumed that it was more of a way to tell someone to bugger off. Quite graphic in it's original use - I can see why it offended. As far as the President is concerned - the SS should get over it and recognize freedom of expression when they see it.

  9. oddtodd

    oddtodd Premium Member

    I just read an interesting article about spongebob being gay and a religious group condeming a video that makes reference to same sex couples .

    There were several comments from readers that followed the article and one stood out among them . Lost the link , so this is in my words :

    As a nation , our bigotry will defeat us .

    I was also thinking that America has the most diverse population in the world , but also the most diverse examples of discrimination . Kinda strange for a country founded by people trying to escape persecution .

    What happened to the melting pot ?
  10. Bleys

    Bleys Phoenix Takes Flight Staff Member

    Our greatest strength and our greatest weakness is our diversity.

    I remember getting a powerpoint email shortly after 9/11 that addressed this - I wish I still had it. It talked about how we fight with one another, complain about who gets more, jockey for individual identity, but when challenged by an outside threat - we become Americans. I just loved that sentiment and saw the truth in it. We will always fight amongst ourselves but we will also die to protect our country and each other from anyone who tries to take it away.

  11. Ikebana

    Ikebana Member

    It's been used in different cultures and tribes, as well as other social and religious institutions LONG before Germany used it. So, if it is banned, then what will the others, who use it as a religious symbol do? As far as the little Prince is concerned, it wasn't his fault he was born into a family who called themselves "royal" and convince the people of their country that they were somehow born "royal" simply because at one time long long ago, WAY back in time, they fought and killed and went to war in order to scarf us a bunch of property on this planet and again convinced everyone else, most likely by intimidation, that they somehow had some "god" given right to "rule" over other people...well maybe the little Prince is making a statement, or maybe he was just insensitive. No one can really know but himself.
  12. JcMinJapan

    JcMinJapan Premium Member

    Well, the swastika is the same as a certain type of buddhism. I saw them on places alot in Korea and even here in Japan. But, Swastika is tilted and the religous symbolism is straight. Then I guess they would have to decide to what degree can it be tilted before it is illegal...... 1%, 5%, 18%, 30%, 30.011111%... it iwll be difficult as people will try to get around the legalism of it.

    In Iraq, we are jailing clerics and others that only talk about rebelling and hate against americans/coalition.... Closing newspapers and arresting the owners of papers that talk against the coalition. Was that guy in the wheel chair any different? I wonder with the new terrorism laws if that guy could be arrested... hmmmm

    Preaching and displaying hate towards others is very bad in my opinion. But, the problem may be... what is offensive to everyone in the world and what else could be banned? Legally, this could all be very difficult....
  13. kiwirobin

    kiwirobin Premium Member

    You are what you've learnt.
    Give me two children and I'll raise one to hate something and the other to die protecting it.
    Symbology is one of my passions, I have found that the emotional responce is based on the learnt association.
    In India they shake their head to say yes and nod for no.
    Confusion stems from opposing interpritations, and the cause of much conflic between man.
    I have learnt never to judge or impose my meaning, because usually I'm wrong and my opinion based upon limited information. VERY dangerous.
    Religious groups are some of the most dangerous, acting on blind faith without even informing themselfs about the other view.
    My studies into symbols have shown that the various religions all are striving for the same goal...GOD
    They teach the same lessons to inner knowledge.
    Ironic that so much war, pain, death is caused between groups with no knowledge of eachother.
    In Indonesia the swaztika is everywhere and by no means offencive.
    To give someone a swaztika is to wish them well and good fortune.
    Your emotional responce to something is based on how you've learnt to react to it, don't be fooled into thinking you have your own free will because most of what you do is a result of your experience.