ID Lounge Debate - Space Exploration

Discussion in 'ID Members Lounge' started by Icewolf, Feb 18, 2005.

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  1. Icewolf

    Icewolf Premium Member

    This is a simple debate to try and get these started.

    Do you think Space Exploration is worth it?

    Start Date 18/2/2005
    End Date 23/2/2005

    Space exploration has long fascinated the human race. Wandering into the unknown we have successfully acheived many things in the short time our space agencies have been in existance. From putting the first humans and animals into space to launching an unmanned probe to one of Jupiter's moons. But is it really worth it? Many people are happy on Earth and see space exploration as a waste of time and money which could be spent on other things. Whereas others feel that in our technologically advanced era we should be doing more to broaden our horizons in space.

    [Edited on 18-2-2005 by Icewolf]
     
  2. bodebliss

    bodebliss The Zoc-La of Kromm-B Premium Member

    Icewolf,

    Space exploration is a economic imperative(I remember posting on this subject). The possibility that we will get the magority of our energy and raw materials from space and that a hefty part of our manufacturing will be done in orbit because of this is 100%.

    It's not if we will be a space civilization it is when will we be space based civilization.

    If we solar celled 2% of the Moon by converting lunar soil into solar cells it would provide it would provide all the energy we now use.

    One mile wide metallic asteroid would provide all the iron and nickel the Earth uses in 2 years and 20-40 million ounces of precious metal, and it would deliver it to orbit which would make ten times more valuable. We are talking $trillions.
     
  3. Icewolf

    Icewolf Premium Member

    Yes thats all and well if we were getting these one mile wide asteroids, i haven't heard about any recently, also what about pollution, space vessels are a major cause of pollution.

    (P.S this is a debate you don't need to refer to me by name.
    also i have no strong feelings either way here, i'm just trying to keep it debate like.)
     
  4. bodebliss

    bodebliss The Zoc-La of Kromm-B Premium Member

  5. Young William

    Young William Premium Member

    Without question, I think the real hinderance to advance is political.
     
  6. bodebliss

    bodebliss The Zoc-La of Kromm-B Premium Member

    So what's that to mean /

    You don't want people to respond to your posts?
     
  7. bodebliss

    bodebliss The Zoc-La of Kromm-B Premium Member

    I think it's more like economics. Resources are unlimited. Economics determines when they come online.
     
  8. Icewolf

    Icewolf Premium Member

    Considering how far away these asteroids are, (between mars and jupiter) then it may take a while to get there, this idea is a bit implausible at the moment, yes there are just about unlimited resources in these asteroid belts but how many years away are we from getting mining operations set up there?
     
  9. bodebliss

    bodebliss The Zoc-La of Kromm-B Premium Member

  10. Icewolf

    Icewolf Premium Member

    Out of interest, Would it be possible to use the vast amount of light from our sun to solve our energy problems, by launching huge solar panels into space?

    Also I read that the space elevator was a work of fiction and not really plausible [there was a reason]

    (lol, because n one else is taking part I'm arguing both sides of the debate.)

    [Edited on 19-2-2005 by Icewolf]
     
  11. bodebliss

    bodebliss The Zoc-La of Kromm-B Premium Member

    Resources have never been the problem.

    It's economics no matter how much they talk about running out, it's all bull till you see them building solar stations on the Moon and in Earth orbit.When you see them running to put capacity online, that's when you'll know we are getting near the end of the current glut of cheap energy.

    Just in the area on the Moon and near the Earth we could produce 200 times as much energy as the world uses each year. Lots of room for expansion there. The problem with people is they don't research and they don't or can't process info. That's why they are running around shouting the end is near. If we were to use the whole length of Earth's orbit, we are talking tens of thousands of times annual production from all sources (the ring would go behind our orbit).

    The fact is coal, oil, gas, and nuclear are still cheaper. You can't defeat that.

    [Edited on 2-20-2005 by bodebliss]
     
  12. Icewolf

    Icewolf Premium Member

    What about the number of accidents?

    Or the number of astronaughts who are now suffering cancer years after being space due to the radiation they faced.
     
  13. bodebliss

    bodebliss The Zoc-La of Kromm-B Premium Member

    Icewolf,

    Interested in space? Why not go there right now?

    Checkout these sites(bookmark):
    The Earth
    http://www.fourmilab.ch/earthview/satellite.html
    The Sun
    http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/

    --------------------------------------------

    To sustain the way we live now, we go about in a certain manner. This lifestyle is costly. The cost is about 100,000 deaths, and over 20 million individuals injured. It doesn't even raise eyebrows. It appears to be some kind of acceptable number(like 4.5% unemployment)

    If one hair on an astronauts head is harmed do we get jittery?

    Yes, we do. When the time comes that astronaut is a career choice and normal job, this will be forgot. When we need them and expect them to put the power online and keep it there, they will be infrastructure, and their sacrifice to the gods of economics will be acceptable.

    The cost in injury and death of your way of life(U.S.)


    NASA is deep into new kinds of materials for protection from deep space radiation, and nanobio engineering to sustain the health of astronauts and make it possible for astronauts to repair the damage to their cells with nanites. I didn't find links for this, but remember reading it late one nite on a NASA site. Look around.


    P.S.:In near-Earth orbit the magnetosphere protects the astronauts against the real bad stuff, except during large solar storms caused by solar flares.

    Lucky when I was born I already knew all this. Yes, school was a breeze.

    [Edited on 2-20-2005 by bodebliss]
     
  14. JcMinJapan

    JcMinJapan Premium Member

    Deep Space experimentation is NEEDED NOW! The time to prepare is NOW! Why? Well....

    The Earth will leave the temperate zone of the Sun eventually , but before that even happens, I am sure we will be hit by an asteroid in a few hundred or even thousand years. Currently, we cannot even land a man on the moon and we are hoping to accomplish this in 10-15 years?

    How long do you think it will take to create ships that can be self supportive with whole colonies of people on them? You are talking ships that will have to be the size of small cities and have all of the same facilities.

    People will have to travel many LIGHT YEARS to even find a planet we would be able to inhabit or even terraform. We could just send these spaceships into all different directions and hope they find a place or we can search the best areas in the universe that may offer our best chances of survival.

    We would have to be able to not only monitor the atmospheres, but gravitational effects on the planets, but be able to analyze the whole planet for liveability. But, if we can live on a planet, then you can bet that there will be life.... We would have to research unknown physics, species, and environments.

    These small cities would have to support the highest technologies, be able to become more advanced and upgrade the ship and facilites during the hundreds of years traversing the cosmos in their search for a new home. But, they would have to be able to manufacture and get the cities started on the surface. These ships would have to be city csized, but be able to deal as self sustaining countries.... IE: Educational, Technical Advances, food growth, waste disposal, population growth, etc etc etc.

    There is no way that with our current technology that we could have this setup in 100 or even 200 years. Thank goodness that there are no known asteroids on an impact path with the earth now. How long will it take to create enough of these city sized ships to empty out this planet as much as humanly possible? How will we even start to create such a ship? How would we have any idea which direction to go in?

    Saving money on deep space exploration and developing the means to go inter-stellar will only shorten the time we have to figure it all out. I would guess we may have this all figured out in a few hundred years..... Then to build cities this size is another few hundred years.... Look at how long it has taken us to build a small space station....

    We may be able to put the money that we save to saving lives of people now. We may even be able to save 100,000 or more lives in the long run. But, even if we save 1,000,000,000 lives over the term of 400 years, but then get caught behind the 8-Ball of a fast approaching asteroid that is the size of a large city, would it be worth it to have just wiped out the whole human race? Their saved lives would have been wonderful and great at the time, but we would have killed ourselves off. Ok, even if we could quickly get something build to get people off and started, we would have to leave billions behind. We would quickly surpass the total of saved lives while we lived here.

    Spending the money now will save the human race in the long run and allow it to have a chance to flourish in other locations around our universe. We must plan ahead, we must start planning now.
     
  15. bodebliss

    bodebliss The Zoc-La of Kromm-B Premium Member

    That's interesting have you ever looked at the idea of mining the inside of large asteroids and then using some of the metal to plug it and stock it and spin it and fuel it w/ nuclear energy. Huge beams of energy running down the center could mimic the Sun.

    You could fit 50 million people in something like that.
     
  16. junior_smith

    junior_smith Premium Member

    As neccesary as Deep Space Travel is, i think, and it pains me to say this, i think we need to deal withs tuff liek global warming and poverty first, then we can explore the heavens as one united world
     
  17. Icewolf

    Icewolf Premium Member

    At last an opposing view,

    well I love space exploration with all ym heart but juniors right, here first, there later.
     
  18. JcMinJapan

    JcMinJapan Premium Member

    JS, that is a good concept, but can you offer how this will be proposed? First, look at the state of the world..... We have a more realistic chance of evacuating the planet in 10 years than to become a united world in 1000 years. It will simply not happen.

    Global Warming, we have Kyoto... Ok, it is not the best plan, but it is a start. Also, there have not been any other better plans offered out there as well. Many countries will not even take a first step because of money and politics. Obviously, saving the planet is not on the agenda as well.

    The planet WILL DIE one way or another. We WILL HAVE TO LEAVE this planet at one time or another. On December 27th of last year, did you know that a magnetar let of a pulse that altered our upper atmosphere? This magnetar was 50 light years away. If this magnetar was within 10 light years, scientists estimated that it could cause permanent damage and set off global extinction. Yes, that is true, they also stated that there are no known magnetars within this distance. But, how sure are we? How much of the actual sky has been scanned within 10 light years to find a star the size of a small city? We only knew about it when it hit us.... How much of the sky has been scanned for all known NEOs? Sometimes we find out only months or a few years ahead. I mean, these are fast moving objects and can only be caught with a little luck. The Sun will eventually get hotter and will burn the Earth. The Sun is a violent body. Solar flares hit the earth all the time. The Northern Lights are exactly that... Now, what if the sun let off a very huge flare? Just once? How many other factors known and unknown could happen upon this little rock?

    Now, consider this Earth like your house. Ok, now consider the life of a house as the life of the Earth, but there are a few restrictions. You of course cannot change the foundations of the house and you also will have your LAND LEASE expire. Now, you have a 30 year old house and the contract is expected to expire in 120 years. The lease WILL NOT be renewed, so you MUST MOVE. If a tornado hits the house, then you cannot of course fix the foudation and the same with a fire or other natural/manmade disaster. You cannot leave the house grounds if you do not have another land, so moving to a hotel would be out of the question. You have to live in it as is. Now you will raise your kids there and your kids will take over the place. You will also not have transportation, you cannot leave the house grounds to go and search for land as well, everything must be conducted from within the grounds. Also, you will have to make your own car or cart to move anything that you will have to move as well. The cart may or may not have to cross mountains, rivers, streams or other unknown places on the way if you do find a place. Will the family have to push the cart 10,000 Km by hand? Should you find a way to build something mechanical with what you have on your house grounds or manufacture pieces with raw material that you have delivered? Remember, you must build it with only what you can create yourself and you must design everything yourself. No technical manuals or books allowed. You must acquire these skills on your own. Is it smarter to spend all your money on something that you will eventually HAVE to leave? Or, is it smarter to keep the house in the best working order, plus start to research the best location, build up your knowledge, and possibly start to think about buying or saving for the land and thus giving your kids and their future families a place to call their home possibly forever? Is 150 years enough for you and your family to start to learn to make the vehicle to travel in and to search for a new land? How will you even search for new land without the internet or way of leaving? How will you create all these devices with only raw materieals.. IE: Iron ore, rocks, sand, etc etc etc? How will your family survive the move when it comes. Is it loving for you to tell your kids that you will not worry about it and good luck to them?

    Thinking of only now will prepare us for a more comfortable death as a species, but starting to plan for the future will allow us to thrive in the universe. The only way to thrive in a universe is to know it. In order to know it, we need to have deep space exploration. We are not talking even 1% of GDP. Right now, NASA is at a terrible 0.2% of GDP. If we just took it up to 0.8% of GDP like in the 60's, the technology would advance by leaps and bounds. But, the technology advancing my leaps and bounds will still requires hundreds of years to see the full fruit of their work. Plan ahead for a better tomorrow.

    [Updated] ' Made the scenario a bit more realistic by adding that we cannot leave the grounds and have to find a way for us to move.

    [Edited on 22-2-2005 by JcMinJapan]
     
  19. bodebliss

    bodebliss The Zoc-La of Kromm-B Premium Member

    Would you like to support that with viable stats?

    Do you think the richest country ever can't afford a little space exploration?

    Recovering resources from space and doing manufacturing in orbit will make us fabulously richer. Other countries will fall to there knees before us. The amount of energy produced from orbit and on the Moon will equal all the energy we need 10X over by 2100.

    Those of the small mind who shoot their foot to no advantage.
     
  20. bodebliss

    bodebliss The Zoc-La of Kromm-B Premium Member

    Don't go into space. You won't be missed.
     
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