ID Lounge Debate 2: Cryptozoology - Bigfoot

Discussion in 'ID Members Lounge' started by Zsandmann, Apr 5, 2005.

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  1. Zsandmann

    Zsandmann Premium Member

    Welcome to Round 2 of our debates.
    This round will be Team 1: Lupus Infinitas vs. Team 3: Angel's Angels

    Please refer to the rules thread for specific requirements. I will send a u2u to all participants before the debate begins so consider yourself forwarned. Good Luck!
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    The topic is: BIGFOOT: In recent years there has been growing interest and research into the possible existance of an unknown bipedal primate stalking the western forests of the US. Similar reports also come from Asia. Is it possible that a unrecorded species of giant ape crossed the Bering land-bridge during the last Ice Age? Or is Bigfoot just a myth set against the unexplored wilds that remain to be explored fully?
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    Team 1 will be in SUPPORT of the subject.
    Team 3 will be OPPOSED.

    Team 1: Lupus Infinitas (Team Substitution Approved)
    1st - Icewolf
    2nd - tablet
    Summariser - helenheaven

    Team 3: Angel's Angels
    1st - _Angel_1991
    2nd - Awokenmind
    Summariser - ilovepizza
     
  2. Icewolf

    Icewolf Premium Member

    Ladies and Gentleman, Mr Chair, and my worthy opposition. Firstly I’d like to say that The Bigfoot Theory is inevitably going to cause an argument but I assure you that I do believe it is possible. How could this intriguing idea be nothing more than an imagined myth if there is so much evidence backing it up? Surely there must be some form of truth behind it. All theories start with some small form of truth behind them even if it is exaggerated. So in response to the question,
    I would have to say that it is undeniable that there is some form of giant ape in our wilderness. An undocumented unique evolutionary phenomenon, and I hope that this debate sparks an interest in you and compels you to see the truth behind this matter.

    There are many reasons why Bigfoot can easily be seen to exist but I will only cover the following points.

    1: The fact that the number of sightings gives undeniable factual evidence that Bigfoot exists.
    2: The truth that we take for granted the existence of many species on Earth yet we have never seen any physical evidence of their existence. And
    3: The unlikelihood that we are the only humanoid species on earth.

    My first point would be that with so many sightings and recordings how could it be impossible for such a thing to exist? It seems unlikely that so many people would simply waste their time with so many elaborate “hoaxes” and therefore I believe that much of the evidence in support of Bigfoot should be trusted as genuine. Although, even I am not so arrogant as to proclaim that all the photo’s and “chance encounters” with Bigfoot are real. There are many people out there looking to make some quick money, but surely somewhere deep inside all of you, you must realise that not all the evidence can be false. Somewhere amongst the numerous images there must be authentic proof of our long distant cousin Bigfoot.

    Also, why is it that people feel that this one animal with no clear pictures is fake when there are so many animals out there that have no pictures yet no one seems to argue over their validity? The fact is that in today’s society seeing is believing. Or is it? For we take for granted that dinosaurs exist, yet have you ever seen a dinosaur? How about a photo of one? So we have photos of Bigfoot and we don’t have photo’s of dinosaurs and yet the public will openly say that dinosaurs were real and it is Bigfoot which is the myth. It seems remarkable that anyone could follow such flawed logic.

    Finally, isn't it a bit arrogant to think that we are the only humanoid species on Earth? As shown by Charles Darwin in his studies of the Galapagos Islands birds we see that evolution differs depending on where you are. He found that birds would evolve differently to match the nuts on different islands yet they all originated from one single species. Imagine the effects of the early caveman who evolved to suit his needs in a forest, some would argue he would “devolve” back into an early animal state. And so evolution, which many scientists agree is scientific fact, agrees with The Bigfoot Theory. There are many species of animal on Earth why not humanoids?

    To sum my arguments, I would like to say that not only do many scientific facts follow this theory but there is too much physical evidence for anyone to dispute.

    In conclusion I feel I have shown that the Bigfoot Theory is undoubtedly possible and that the animal Bigfoot could easily be wandering out in the wilderness of our country. Evolution shows that it is highly likely that there should be more humanoid species on Earth. And, that if we were to free our minds from the stereotypical “Apeman” description our media uses we would see that science, the very thing that leads our world into the future, agrees to the possibility of Bigfoot. I now step down and allow my worthy opposition the chance to give their opinion.
     
  3. _Angel_1991

    _Angel_1991 Premium Member

    Fellow Deniers of Ignorance,
    I would like to thank the chair and my creditable opponent for their time and their effort.
    It is apparent to any clear sighted man or woman that Bigfoot is a hoax. Anyone should be able to see through this laughable myth of a giant, ape-like humanoid that supposedly lives in our midst. There are three irrefutable points that support my claim:
    • The lack of any reputable scientist who has come forward and publicly declared that Bigfoot was real
    • The lack of evidence that could stand up to scientific scrutiny
    • The confession of the man who started the hoax

    My first point is thus: No reputable scientist has yet come forward with a statement saying that Bigfoot can possibly exist. If they did, then we would have someone who has looked at this case with the cold, fair eye of science, then emotions like panic or surprise do not interfere with the reasoning process. Yes, there are many creatures out there that we have never seen, but people who have no reason to lie have seen them, and so we believe in them.
    The reason we believe in dinosaurs is because we have had many scientist confirm that these massive creatures were real. Many of these unbiased women and men have pored over the evidence, and all have come to the same conclusion.

    For my second point, I would also like to point out that people believe in dinosaurs because we have bones we can see and observe. However, the Bigfoot case has only photos and eyewitness accounts to back it up. In this age of technology, any photo can be digitally changed to support evidence. Footprints? Footprints can be made with wood and other materials. Videos? Videos can be digitally retouched like photos and made to show things that aren’t there. As for eyewitnesses, there are three types of eyewitnesses: a person who deliberately lies, someone who thinks they saw something, or someone who so wants to see something that they do. None of these are hard enough evidence that could stand against scrutiny by scientists. Many eyewitnesses are merely panicked campers who saw an ape or gorilla and jumped to the wrong conclusion.

    For my final point, I would like to point out that the very man who made the legend of Bigfoot died and his family admitted that it was a hoax.
    This is the website:
    http://www.nbc4.tv/irresistible/1823767/detail.html
    According to the man’s family, this man was a great practical joker and so decided to pull the biggest prank of all: this man single-handedly created a legend that lasted up to now. He did in fact base his prank off past legends, but still the modern day Bigfoot is based off this man’s work.

    In conclusion, I again say that without the backing of credible scientists, physical evidence that will stand up to scientific scrutiny, and proof that the man who claimed to have started the Bigfoot myth is indeed lying, Bigfoot must remain a myth. There cannot be “innocent until proven guilty” in science. I know step down and wait for my worthy opponents to reply to my claim.

    :lol: short only 540 some words….
     
  4. tablet

    tablet Premium Member

    Gentlemen! Angel here at ID claims that this whole thing is a hoax! This is absurd! DO you honestly believe that this whole thing is a hoax? How is it possible, when thousands have claim to have seen this hairy-creature from many regions !? From North American to Canada and Alaska and many others! Are we here to say that the man who setup this prank traveled from region to region just to fool thousands of people? Are we here to say that ALL witness are brainless and that they can’t tell the different between a real Bigfoot/man in black custom when they see one? ARE we here to say that this man and many pranksters alike can fool forensic experts and finger/footprint analyst? Jokers fooling forensic experts…?? This is indeed something to be laugh at, not Bigfoot!

    Quote 1:The lack of any reputable scientist who has come forward and publicly declared that Bigfoot was real
    Quote 2:The lack of evidence that could stand up to scientific scrutiny

    I am truly sadden to hear this because we are not lacking evidence, we have enough to prove that creature like Bigfoot are real or at least something like this is out there. No, what we are lacking is an open mind… one that is willing to explore to unlock this mystery to the public. Unfortunately the majority are confused due to science-fiction/horror movies plus the idea that joker are out there falsely claiming that they hoax most sighting! All in all these joker did nothing but distorts the real truth while gaining attention. Whenever people hear something like Bigfoot they burst out and laugh. This is what sadden me because this is the core reason that not many reputable scientist dare step forward to declare that Bigfoot is real for fear of being ridicule, not just that but destruction in their reputation. Clearly gentlemen, as you can see Angel has demonstrated the possibility of scientist being ridicule in his cleverly opening statement and last sentence!!

    And the evidence we do have but I wouldn’t say that they’re absolute just like when scientist first look into dinosaur, however we are moving closer to Bigfoot than ever and soon we will have a complete picture like what we have now for dinosaur. Not to mention our find on Gigantopithecus in Asia also known as “Giant Ape” and Giant it is! Much bigger than what we have known Bigfoot to be. Beside this one golden find forensic experts and many finger/footprints analyst have looked into Bigfoot’s print and declared that it is indeed a creature that witness have been echoing about.

    Quote 3:The confession of the man who started the hoax
    This is nothing. Sighting of this hairy creature goes way back before this man’s birth! And who really knows the motive of this family for wanting to be on national TV??! For someone to pull this prank sure have some sort of mental illness! And where on earth did he get the idea of this hairy-creature? Ah yes, based on past legend. Legend no more for we are getting nearer and nearer to Bigfoot.

    In conclusion I would like to say that this is not a hoax, people have reported and claimed that they have seen this mysterious creature for more than 400 years! And still continue today. Scientist will not step out UNTIL we gather more concrete evident. Not many people take this seriously so scientist’s work are lagging plus the fact that this Bigfoot is a mysterious creature. I hope that my view here compels you to take this seriously, that you you want to believe and support those that research Bigfoot.

    Forensic expert says Bigfoot is real, I too will say that it is and now will step down allowing my worthy opponent to elicit his view.

    Ref 1: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/10/1023_031023_bigfoot.html and a google on Gigantopithecus.
    Ref 2: http://www.bfro.net/ (Sighting)

    (598 words, excluding quotes and links)
     
  5. Ape

    Ape Premium Member

    Intros waste words. Lets start with Bigfoot, Yeti, Sasquatch, whatever you want to call it. All the evidence is the same. No real physical evidence, no body or bones, photos terribly taken, noises horribly hoaxed. The only real evidence of footprints, very dramatically in size and form. (Fakes) To me it looks like your all repeating yourselves. But you can’t find much more than that when you type bigfoot in google. Anyhoot, so I find that bigfoot might be an evolved form of Gigantopithecus, so I look into that. The only bones found of this mammal are 3 jaw bones and a few thousand teeth. They were dated back to the beginning of the Pleistocene Era roughly 1.8 million years ago while another site says 13 million years but they both agree that they left anywhere between 10,000 to 500,000 years ago. Now the question is how'd they go?

    Here’s some backround info, Gigantopithecus was about 5 to 600 pds and on there hind legs stood about 9 to 10 ft, supposedly. The jaw bones were mostly found from Liucheng Cave, China but teeth were also found in some southwestern China areas, Viet Nam, and Northern India. So I'm guessing these Gigantopithecus like warm humid climate. So some say the ice age came and they went extinct others say #@!&% Erectus (which was around at the time) may have hunted them down or used up there supposed main source of food, bamboo. While others say these genius creatures migrated north toward the cold amazingly survived without any living fruits or plants (they were vegitarians) went across the ICE bridge and came down to the good old U.S. of A.
    Well I didn't by it so I then find that Gigantopithecus was along the lines of Orangutans! So if bigfoot might not be real (hard to find any info) and Gigantopithecus has 3 jaw bones to it's existence. Well then I should read something proven real. Orangutans.

    There are four kinds of great apes: Gorillas, Chimpanzees, Bonobos, and Orangutans. Orangutans come from Asia while the others from Africa. According to www.ORANGUTAN.com, there only found on the islands Sumatra and Bormeo. They are the largest tree living mammals in the world. The other great apes do climb trees and build sleeping nest in these tress but are primarily Terrestrial (spending lives on the ground). Orangutans homes are large nest made out of leaves and such. Do you see many Sasquatch nest in your woods? Or do you think North American forest with there pine trees, typically cold winters (un-explored regions) and I don't know about you guys but I live near a bunch of woods but have never seen a fruit tree or bush even. Of course except for those small red berries but do u think an 8 to 10 ft tall 600 to 800 pd. ape man could live off a..........berrie bush.? You'd see him scrounging down a 10 point elk every hour, but no....... he's a vegetarian. So, there’s an 8 ft tall 700pd ape man in the woods, living off of berries sleeping under a rock (I don’t think he’d be happy up in a pine tree), while walking around the woods alone looking for more berries.
    Seriously though, if an actual creature the size of Gigantopithecus blacki existing in numbers sufficient to qualify as a breeding population would not only leave physical remains, but would have an observable effect on their environment.

    An old sherpa once observed, "There’s a yeti in the back of everyone's mind, only the blessed are not haunted by it."
     
  6. Icewolf

    Icewolf Premium Member

    Mr Chair, I have returned to enforce our argument. Our naive opposition who are supplying your good selves with half baked arguments using an argument based solely on opinion and not many facts. Let us review the real facts once more. Bigfoot is an evolutionary masterpiece **. We have found evidence in bones and footprints. From the limited sightings we can surmise that like many animals it avoids humans quite successfully.

    However as with all animals on occasion there are sightings. Now is use occasionally quite loosely as there have been numerous sightings.
    Now really, there have been so many sightings of Bigfoot that there must be hundreds, possibly thousands, of these "panicked campers". In fact I didn't know you got gorillas in the USA? But that aside, it’s quite difficult to take a picture of a moving target especially if you’re not a trained photographer. Therefore it is understandable that many photos are blurry. Remember this is an animal and it has heightened senses to help it find these berries.

    Dr Grover Krantz, professor of anthropology at Washington State University insists that Bigfoot exists. He says
    "I've studied this creature and I'm 100 percent sure it is real." So I'm very sorry to inform my opposition but there have been many scientists who have risked being ridiculed by cynics to show their support for Bigfoot. Studies which have concluded that it is highly likely that during our evolutionary stages there were many forms of humanoid created.

    Monkeys, humans, and Bigfoot are all linked with the bipedal evolution. But do you see humans living in trees, no we started on the evolutionary ladder living in caves, (hence the caveman) so why must our Bigfoot cousins? Of course there are a lot of places where Bigfoot could stay, from underground burrows to caves.

    Bigfoot, Sasquatch and Yeti. My opposition have aided me here. They have pointed out that the evidence of the existence of our missing link are everywhere. From the cold north, to the rainforests in Asia, to the America’s. With such a widespread proof which goes as far back as when these countries had no contact with each other it amazes me that anyone could rule out completely it’s existence.

    In fact come to think of it I have definitive proof of a real live living Sasquatch. Just look at one of our newest members Sasquatch. I’m sure he will testify to his own mortality and prove everyone he is real.

    Bigfoot is as real as any of the 1000 (approximate) unrecorded fish in the Amazon River. Yet my opposition are placing faith in scientists who scoffed at evolution, who said the atom was the smallest thing there was and who said the earth was flat and so are being quite foolhardy. This plays science in a role which mocks the very foundations on which it stands.

    [I can't believe yet again the opposition have lost becaue they edited their posts]
     
  7. _Angel_1991

    _Angel_1991 Premium Member

    As we plunge back into this debate, I would like to point a few things out.
    First of all, let me remind everyone that evolution is still a theory, and a theory WITHOUT evidence. So it is with Bigfoot. The strength of the opposing argument is the unlikelihood of an evolutionary chain to only produce one humanoid animal. Well, if evolution is indeed not true, then it is not strange at all that humans are the only humanoid creature on earth.

    With so many sightings, it is odd that not ONE person has managed to find the lair of a Bigfoot. With some scientists agreeing that Bigfoot is real, it seems unlikely that no professional tracker would also believe. But if these trackers do believe, why is it that they cannot find the lair of such a creature? No matter how much Bigfoot might have evolved, it does not seem possible for it to be spotted thousands of times and yet be sophisticated enough to hide from a professional tracker or hunter.

    Let me remind my opposition that ideas come to mankind as a species, not as individuals. When one group of scientists comes up with an idea, almost simultaneously another group across the world also comes up with the same idea. This is the phenomena of the human race. The same is said of dragons: many cultures have stories related to them. Bigfoot was a legend started by one person, maybe a few thousand years ago. However, this legend soon spread through the phenomena I mentioned above. Now it is known worldwide.

    People of ID, I ask that you open your eyes and see the truth: Bigfoot is nothing but a trumped up legend coupled with a practical joker’s prank. There is no apelike humanoid stalking the woods. Why waste time trying to find a fictional animal when there is so much mystery in things that we know exist?

    :lol: even shorter: 360 some words...
     
  8. Zsandmann

    Zsandmann Premium Member

    Debate Concluded.

    By decree of Z, again it was a well formed debate with both sides providing fitting arguements, unfortunately a small rules violation resulted in a forfeit. Please be sure to read the rules throughly before posting. And thanks for another fabulous round.


    Z
     
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