Metaphysics Chaos And Future

Discussion in 'Metaphysics' started by junior_smith, Dec 31, 2004.

  1. junior_smith

    junior_smith Premium Member

    I have a question for you, if we programmed into a computer, everything about science, and the history of the whole world and man kind from aristotle to the a-bomb, could we then see what would happen in the future?

    Now chaos theory might tell us that, it could be a possibility , but it is not 100% for sure, just like the comp program might take a right at a forking path where as man might take a left.

    but then if chaos theory does not exist, then we could get it right.

    i'm sure im not the first person to think of this, byut i did do so on my own and i am interested to hear what other people thought.
     
  2. bodebliss

    bodebliss The Zoc-La of Kromm-B Premium Member

    Well if you were psychic we could differentiate between your ability and that of the program.
     
  3. oddtodd

    oddtodd Premium Member

    There are too many factors to account for in any model you might make for a computer to make the call . Take the weather for instance , we know why things happen , how they happen , but the largest computers in the world cannot make infallible predictions as to what WILL happen because "everything affects everything else" you can't account for the random influences . Hence : Chaos !
     
  4. bodebliss

    bodebliss The Zoc-La of Kromm-B Premium Member

    The weathher prediction thing is getting better by the year. They are up 21 day predicts w/ 70% accuracy.

    They are closing wind tunnels cause predictive software is better.

    Soon drug discovery will be done with computers. Give it 5 years.

    Some day a child will be born and they'll predict what it's whole life will be to his or her last minute.
     
  5. junior_smith

    junior_smith Premium Member

    say you could account for everythign, its just theory i know, however we could not knwo everything about anything, just go with it.
    actually, say they could account for our lack of knowledge, or would they just be in the same place we are, i guess you need to be omniscient for this to work
     
  6. tablet

    tablet Premium Member

    Interesting concept.

    I don't think it's possible because everything affects everything else. IF we program everything into the computer then the outcome would be for that "everything" that was programmed into the computer. While we/us outside of that program are making changes that wasn't part of the computer program when we programmed it. Therefore we have to constantly program our everyday events into the computer if we want the program to see/predict the outcome of the future. Computer are fixed.

    I think we will still have to use our judgement if oneday this concept is implemented. Based on our input the computer will calculate as far as it can, in all possible directions/paths and lay it out for us. How will the computer choose what is our future? The computer sure have plenty! based on all possible path but it cannot tell us what will happen as todd pointed out.

    What will happen? When we decided to program everything into the computer what we've just done was introducing another "chaos" into a global chaos. And the whole thing of all this? A chaos in itself!

    Without the program, our action would be "A". But having introduce the program our action might be "B" for the program will affect us in ways we're not aware of.

    That's my perspective.
     
  7. tablet

    tablet Premium Member

    Minority Report

    Some day a child will be born and they'll predict what it's whole life will be to his or her last minute.
    Now that's scary! I fear that oneday minority report might come true. For it to work it would have to spy/monitor on its victim 24/7.
     
  8. bodebliss

    bodebliss The Zoc-La of Kromm-B Premium Member

    Oh, you haven't heard of RFID. There are plans to put it in artificial materials to monitor potential failure, make whole wall video receive/send displays, make windows obsolete(virt. windows), security, comfort(light turn on when your around, room to your temp. prefs.). The problem is while the watching walls, cars, streets, etc, are making you comfy, and safe, they are estimating your every action, thought so as to be there, and ready before your needs even become apparent to you. At first it is amaturish, but eventually it's seamless, and then it is taken for ganted and essential(indespensible).

    You forget it's there and the next generation doesn't even know it's there or how it works for them and on them.
     
  9. tablet

    tablet Premium Member

    I haven't really pay much attention when I watched Minority Report in the past. I was more into the F/X. But I wonder how it go about predicting your next move? It would requires a huge database just for one victim. And I fear that once you died, that computer that was monitoring you becomes you! Because it got your daily life activity recorded - from birth to death. There's a movie coming out I forgot the title but this movie has to do with one man sitting in a theatre? watching people's life. A daily on screen.

    I think the best way to do this is to have a microchip or a monitoring device inside your body (which I'm against such idea) rather than having wall camera. The monitoring device inside your body would keep track of everything you do then send it to a mainframe, with internet2 I'm sure this is no problem. The mainframe would hold data of all monitoring victims. Which can be retrieve and analyze at anytime.

    Here's how I see:

    Suppose I'm sitting at home and the computer have been monitoring me. It knows my name, people I come in contact with. Now keep in mind that everyone that is being monitored have their name stored inside a mainframe database. IF for example I've come in contact with bodebliss and we had this argument then the fight broke out.

    Here's what happen. You have program "A" monitoring me and program "B" monitoring bodebliss. The two program will work together to predict the next move. Don't forget that both bodebliss and I info have been stored into a mainframe and program A and B all it does is just retrieve data from the mainframe and analyze it.

    It even knows what will happen if one of us kill each other. It knows that one of our parents or friends will do something about it for their friends and family have also been in the mainframe database and is also being monitor. So you see. Everything is connected.
     
  10. Icewolf

    Icewolf Premium Member

    hmmm. . i fear we are conspiricising a little, maybe we should look at this from a more philisophical point of view?
     
  11. tablet

    tablet Premium Member

    Not to worry. We are discussing how a program would be able to predict our next move. But now that you brough this up, I'll be honest and say that I've had feeling that someone will mention or think about the word "conspiracy". See, we don't need program to predict that! :)

    Seriously, a funeral could already been made prior to the killing. So yes, it's possible that a program can predict our future by analyzing both the mainframe data and the result of the program (A, B, C ect..) to predict yet the global outcome of human race. A global program that is watching over sub-program (that is analyzing data from mainframe)
     
  12. bodebliss

    bodebliss The Zoc-La of Kromm-B Premium Member

    The plan calls for no more computers as you know them today.
    The idea being decentralized nodes, serial computing. Look up, ' Smart Dust ' you would have millions of smart dust(computer, vid, communication, data storage ) /Square inch, and you say contact my friend and the 10ft X 10ft wall turns into what looks like a portal to your friend's environment and you finish your comm. w/ your friend and the virtual reality goes away, and you say it's a little cool in here 5deg warmer please and the billions of little computers hop-to-it, etc. You say 'Wall Street Journal' and it appears on the wall or maybe a prior blank coffee table. Maybe that future world will have nano-bio grass and trees to watch you outside your home, or why bother exposing yourself to the elements when you can recreate it in your home and have the look-feel of being outside.
     
  13. Mizar

    Mizar Premium Member

    Jouinor smith YOu are speaking of is a theory first published and given credit to Pierre Simon Laplace in the 1800's. It besically states, If you knew everything about everything you could predict the future. This theory was later proved wrong by Heisenburgs famous Uncertanity principle which stated it is impossibile to know everything about everything becasue the motion of an electron is impossible to tell.

    I forget the actual theory name from Laplace but I've read about it before.

    If your intrested in this kind of stuff Jouinor Smith I would sugest you go get some Issac Asimov short story books and read some about "Multivac" which is a huge computer that has all th einfo in the world about everyone and everything. It predicts the future with precentages and such. They have some perty intresting storys my favorite is, "All the Troubbles of the World."
     
  14. bodebliss

    bodebliss The Zoc-La of Kromm-B Premium Member

    Hi Mizar,

    I am hoping this is a science site, and if such is the case then you shouldn't go about misstating the Heisenberg Uncertaintiy principle as it suits not the aims of science.

    Heisenberg stated that in quantum physics(note: I said Quantum physics) it is impossible to measure both the exact position and the exact momentum of a particle at the same time. The more precisely one of the quantities is measured, the less precisely the other is known. This does not pertain to Newton's and Einstein's physical universe where we find ourselves distributed. So there is no reason why, if enough info was compiled, you couldn't predict the future of the physical universe.

    http://www.math.hmc.edu/~orrison/teaching/m171f04/papers/m171paper_moyerman.pdf
     
  15. Mizar

    Mizar Premium Member

    I was not wrong in my def. I only sited one aspect of the principle. When Heisenburg found that it was impossible to measure the momentum and speeed of an electron it proved Laplace wrong. because it would be impossible to know everything about everything.
     
  16. tablet

    tablet Premium Member

    "want some candy tablet?"
    "you already know whether i'm going to take that don't you?"
    "wouldn't be much a oracle if I didn't"
    "but if you did, how can I make a choice?"
    "you already made the choice tablet. you're here to understand why you made it."

    "Oracle, tell me. How is it possible that you can see the future?"
    "Well, I've analyzed your data from past to current including your now"
    "You can read my mind oracle?"

    "Doh, not like that tablet.... Look overthere, you see those birds? There's a program for everything. A program to watch over those birds, a program to watch over trees and living things just like there is one that is watching over you right now tablet. You have a program installed inside you and it's constantly storing data about you and your thought patterns into the database and I'm constantly reading that data. I can only focus on one thing at a time and right now I'm focusing on you so your profile is being analyze as we speak. That's how I know... well you can say I read your mind let's put it that way. Thought you would have figured that out by now!"

    ".....Sorry kiddy my time is running out. Better run when you see those birds start flying..."

    Ok, this is getting a little too sci-fi. For a moment I almost thought I was in the matrix!
     
  17. bodebliss

    bodebliss The Zoc-La of Kromm-B Premium Member

    Mizar,

    Please, for the love of science, reread the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, because the world of science's take on it is, that it pertains only to quantum mechanics. I have seen, in the non-science justification of many, that they use this principle to back up everything from accident to inaccuracy in thinking. If Werner Heisenberg knew that his theory would be used by the non-science community as a crutch, I'm sure he'd of never stated the princple he is famous for.

    He was not an inaccurate man. He was a scientist.
     
  18. Mizar

    Mizar Premium Member

    Bodebliss this whole thing that I am talking about was teh 3rd or 4th chapter in Steven Hawking's book "A Breif Histrory of Time"

    Your deffinotion is correct. Quantam MIchanics deals with subatomic particles. An electron is a Sub Atomic particle. In an atom you have 3 particles, the electron the nuetron and the proton. The electronos orbit the nucleus of the atom whihc consists of protons and neutrons. The protons and neutrons can further more be broken down into quarks. The Electron however is the smallest elementary subatomic particle out of the Proton neutron and electron. Even though the protons and neutrons can be broken down an electron can not. It is believed that an electron is composed of one specail quark called a lepton.

    An electron is a Sub Atomic Particle. The theory proposed by Laplace stated that if you knew everything about everything you could tell the future. When Heisenburg Made his uncertanity principle he said that it was impossible to know the speed, momentum and positon of any subatomic particle at any given time. If you could never know that information about an electron you could never know everything about everything.

    That is what I am sayiing
     
  19. marg6043

    marg6043 Premium Member

    A computer can predict a future using the proven data and historical factps,

    But is something that a computer can not integrate on its program, and that is the human way to change the outcome of an event.

    we human enjoy the freedom to chose.

    In other words we can change our mind on anything.
     
  20. oddtodd

    oddtodd Premium Member

    I agree marge , free will can defeat any program out there .

    I agree with Mizar also in the respect that if one can only tell the location of a particle but not the speed (and vica versa) then there is a randomness that cannot be figured into a program . From the smallest item on up , the system in question can become random and chaotic .

    Sure the weather predictions are getting better , but the dynamic unacountable factors (such as electrons) will keep 100% predictions in the fiction category .

    A butterfly beats his wings in China......